A Talk with the Executive Director of Americans United for the Separation of Church & State
 
 

Barry Lynn:  There is no real conflict between my status as a minister in the United Church of Christ and my rigorous advocacy of church/state separation. I have always believed that the strength of American religion is that it is voluntary (no one in government promotes it or tries to inhibit it; government is wholly neutral). 

I believe every American has a right to promote any idea in the public arena, but that the government is strictly forbidden from incorporating explicitly religious views into secular laws.  Someday, I expect to see even The Supreme Court viewing anti-choice legislation and sodomy laws as unconstitutional, because they enact particular religious views into statutory form. 

Jack Nichols:  Tell me some of the high points in Americans United history that you as its executive director are proud about.

Barry Lynn:  I am proud that we have stayed the course for over fifty years. Like the country song, “we were country before it was cool,” we’ve been battling religious extremism in politics long before anybody else noticed a “Religious Right.” 

We were one of the first groups to oppose tax-subsidized religious schools, gag rules for non-Catholic doctors in Catholic hospitals which prohibited them from discussing even birth control, and censorship of films based on religious oppositions. 

On a more contemporary note, I am proud of the leadership role we played in the defeat of the so-called “Religious Freedom Amendment” sponsored by Rep. Ernest Istook (R-OK) which would have erased the concept of church/state separation for the First Amendment. 

I am also gratified about “Project Fair Play,” our national efforts to report illegal church-based campaign activities to the Internal Revenue Service. (Anti-choice/ anti-gay activists Randall Terry’s home church was the first to lose its tax exemption after an AU complaint). 

Jack Nichols:  Isn't fundamentalist state-grabbing a world-wide struggle? Afghanistan.  Israel. India. Turkey. Algeria. Egypt. How does Americans United relate to that larger struggle?

Barry Lynn:  We pretty much have our plate full dealing with fundamentalist power grabs in the United States. We do occasionally get involved in more global issues, particularly if the U.S. is in a substantial position to help or hinder activity abroad. 

The sobering truth is that the result of a loss of church/state separation here is what is happening in Afghanistan or Northern Ireland. One of our most controversial ad campaigns simply said in block letters: MAYBE WE SHOULD JUST LET RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISTS TAKE OVER THE UNITED STATES (AFTER ALL, IT’S WORKED SO WELL IN IRAN.) Needless to say, many places wouldn’t even publish it! 

Jack Nichols:  Do you foresee a growth of networking among groups who are struggling  against the shenanigans of the religious right? 

Barry Lynn:  Although groups like the ACLU, the Interfaith Alliance, the Anti-Defamation League and Planned Parenthood have occasional working meetings on general strategy, they have not succeeded as I had hoped. We are still working on an improved approach. 

More useful right now are the joining efforts between a few groups toward a specific legal goal (joint representation of parents in voucher cases) or data-gathering efforts (analysis of Christian Coalition voters’ guides biases). Hope springs eternal. 

Jack Nichols:  What do you think are the toughest obstacles to effect better public  understanding of Americans United's reason for being?
 

Barry Lynn:  There is no doubt that the biggest impediment to public awareness is the vast communications empire of the Far Right which spread lies regularly about everything from the history of church/state separation to the agenda of the gay rights movement. 

Through multi-million dollar Christian radio and television networks, coupled with secular radio fellow troublemakers like Ollie North, G. Gordon Liddy, and Rush Limbaugh, instant disinformation is distributed regularly. Although progressives have some great websites (ours is www.au.org), they reach only a fraction of the audience held by right-wing radio ranters. 

Aside from Jim Hightower, is there any progressive voice on syndicated talk-radio nationally? I used to do a show with Pat Buchanan (a kind of “Crossfire”- on-the-radio), but even that “two sides” format is no longer available nationally.

In addition, our public schools (and even our colleges and law schools) do a pretty pathetic job exploring the significance of First Amendment for all of us.

Jack Nichols: When I was sales manager for Randy Wicker's line of hippie slogan buttons  in the late 1960s, I discovered that the toughest button to sell merchants  was "tax the churches." They'd buy outrageous political and sex freedom  buttons, but not the church taxing one. Do many Americans United members  favor church-taxing in general, do you think? Like properties churches own but don't use? 

Barry Lynn:  We've made considerable progress over the years in forcing churches to pay taxes on unrelated business income. However, the issue of taxing churches directly is one which deeply divides civil libertarians.

 Many believe that since churches and other religious groups do benefit from public monies (who puts out the fire in their steeple?) they should pay property taxes.  Others claim that rather than pay property taxes (which could be unduly large for inner-city churches which are "property-rich" but income poor), some kind of income-based tax would be appropriate. 

Finally, others argue that it is good to have a variety of non-profit charities which cannot be regulated by the governments through the tax system. Americans United's membership is closely divided on this question. 

Jack Nichols:  If someone got involved locally working to advance the goals of  Americans United--I know a gay male who does so with gusto--what sorts of  activities might claim their time? What talents would they need? And  besides such real "foot soldiers" and "officers", what can people do who  just want to contribute to the struggle Americans United is waging? 

Barry Lynn:  Local groups and activists serve as the eyes and ears of Americans United all over the country, alerting us to the outrages of the Religious Right in their communities. In addition, we try to provide resources and training to AU chapters (there are about 40 around the country) and other local and regional coalitions interested in these issues. 

Local groups often do media and organizing around local issues and disseminate nationally-governed information to their local outlets. Local activists need a commitment to the issue of church/state separation and willingness to work collaboratively with their communities. We can help move them where they want to go.

Jack Nichols:  You were quoted approvingly in the lesbian/gay newspaper, The Washington Blade. You'd issued a statement that sees how the struggle Americans United wages and that of the gay/lesbian movement's indefatigable foes  cross-connects and makes your organization our gay ally. Could you  elaborate?

Barry Lynn:  The same people and organizations who would like to restrict the fundamental rights of gays and lesbians are those who would tear down the separation of church and state wall, (and censor libraries AND restrict reproductive choice AND destroy public schools). I don't expect every gay rights group to make stopping vouchers its top priority. However, I think these organizations must realize that if tax dollars start flowing to religious schools, too many of those schools will be teaching absurd notions about how "homosexuals want special rights" and propagandizing children with homophobic notions (and all of us will be paying for it). 

Jack Nichols:  What are the principal concerns-of-the-moment about which Americans United is engaged in a struggle. I'm sure the Istook amendment is one. What's that about and what can be done?

Barry Lynn:  The Religious Freedom Amendment should have been defeated by the time readers see this. In addition, we are deeply concerned about vouchers to send tax-dollars to private religious academies (even those that discriminate in hiring and admissions), so-called “charitable choice,” a massive welfare and social service boondoggle to religious institutions where government funds flow (with few strings attached) to houses of worship to administer AFDC and, later promote, substance abuse and AIDS programs without regard to the underlying philosophies and prejudices those churches bring to the issue, religious-motivated library and school curriculum censorship, and efforts to deny the nominations of individuals to public offices because of their religious views or sexual orientation. 

Jack Nichols:  Who are among your organization's strongest allies in America's religious communities and how do they help?

Barry Lynn:  Our greatest allies in the religious community include the social action arms (any many individual churches, pastors, and lay members) of the Presbyterian Churches, the United Church of Christ, the Methodist Church, the Unitarian Universalists Association, and the Episcopal Church.  Virtually every Jewish organization is an ally, as are many minority religious groups such as Christian Science followers, and Seventh Day Adventists. 

One of the most valuable things they do to lobby is allow us to table at their national conferences and give us an opportunity to speak at such events on church/state issues. Many groups also by bulk copies of our award-winning Church & State magazine. 

Jack Nichols:  You've got a good sense of humor and I've always considered you an  effective executive spokesperson. What are some of the tactics you'd recommend to anyone who is fighting the takeover of local, state, and national government by religious zealots, Judging by your own behavior, I'd  say an easy-going smile--to contrast with the zealots usual pious  self-righteousness-- smiles help. What else?

Barry Lynn:  A sense of humor certainly helps when you spend as much time fighting with the Religious Right as I do (as does a massage therapist and Advil). 

Anyone involved in this battle needs to (a) have all their facts straight, (b) know the arguments of the other side, (c) be aggressive without being obnoxious, (d) communicate that they have as much passionate commitment to their side as the other side does, and (e) be willing to step forward as soon as an issue arises. Do not spend time searching for “common ground” if it becomes clear that the other side is not willing to do anything short of finding “common grave” to bury you in.

Barry Lynn:  There will always be the need for an organization such as Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, won't there?  Until and unless the idea of religious freedom for everyone including an end to religiously-motivated repression by some groups- seeps— further into the American psyche, there will be a need for Americans United for Separation of Church and State. One of the reasons we have such a commitment to media outreach is to get across the idea that the United States will be a better place when this kind of genuine religious liberty flourishes. 

Jack Nichols:  What are some good things to read--books--to brush up on the posture of our foes?

Barry Lynn:  Several excellent resources are available through Americans United, including Rob Boston’s "Why the Religious Right is Wrong About Separation of Church and State" and "The Most Dangerous Man in America? Pat Robertson and the Rise of the Christian Coalition"  Other important resources include Gil Alexander-Moegerle’s "James Dobson’s War on America" (Prometheus Books) and Fred Clarkson's "Eternal Hostility" (Common Courage Press). 

Jack Nichols:  I saw a recent copy of Church and State, Americans United's publication. It had pictures of Jerry Falwell and all those other  stuffies of his...sort. Your organization's magazine--what does it help readers do--and how can they subscribe?

Barry Lynn:  Church and State is the only regularly published (11 times a year) magazine which takes a hard look at the Religious Right. I think it is highly useful to all kinds of progressive organizations because it serves as the best “early warning system” for new battlegrounds and strategies of the Far Right.

 In addition, by pointing out the extreme positions taken by its leaders, it provides strong evidence for the yet-to-be- convinced American that the Religious Right must be stopped because it is the most powerful anti-democratic movement in America. A subscription comes with every membership (a minimum of $25) and can be obtained by calling 1-800-875-3707.

Jack Nichols:  Thanks very much for taking the time from your busy schedule to make the purposes of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State known to our readers.  I consider the work your organization does some of the most important there is.  I hope more and more gay men and lesbians will lend an ear to you and their helping hands as well.