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By Rex Wockner
Barney Frank: The legislation that was passed leaves open the definition of 'survivor' and there's room to define this broadly and we have been working to try to make sure the administration defines it broadly enough to include domestic partners ... including any people who shared expenses. We've gotten some good indications from some Republicans that they're ready to support this. I'm reasonably optimistic. Rex Wockner: What would the benefits be? Barney Frank: Tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars per survivor. It's part of the airline bailout bill. Congress voted compensation for victims. It's meant to be an alternative to lawsuits. People will have to pick. They could still have a lawsuit if they wanted to. Rex Wockner: Did the recent Congressional vote that finally allowed the District of Columbia to give benefits to domestic partners of its employees create momentum for this? Barney Frank: Yes. It was very helpful. In both causes, these are indications that we are making progress. The country as a whole is getting better and better on the issue. As more and more people come out to their friends and relatives and customers and teammates and bosses and subordinates, the average American has discovered that it's OK not to be homophobic. Most people weren't homophobic but they had always thought they were supposed to be. Now they've learned that you don't have to be. We're gaining. There's a drag on that, in that the right wing has taken over the Republican Party. Thirty-five years ago, both parties were awful. The Democrats have gotten better and better and better, and the Republicans haven't. They're not much better now than they were 20 years ago because there are countervailing forces in the Republican party. The country is going in one direction but their base pulls them in the other. On that D.C. domestic-partner vote, we got 91 percent of the Democrats and 19 percent of the Republicans. What is interesting is that it was the Republicans who were unhappy at their leadership for bringing it up. The House Republicans said to their leadership: "What the hell is the matter with you? Why are you making us vote on this?" That's very interesting. Ten years ago, if we'd had a vote on that issue, it would have been the Democratic members complaining that they hate to have to vote on this. Until fairly recently, the Democrats thought they were caught between the anti-gay feelings of the general public and the pro-gay activism within the Democratic party. Now the Republicans feel torn. People don't like gay-bashing. ... Rex Wockner: Many Republican politicians now very much don't want to be seen as gay-bashers. I don't think it's right to say they're no better than they were 20 years ago. They're certainly better than they were 10 years ago. Barney Frank: I wish there were pressures in the Republican party to make them better. There are not. There are pressures in the general electorate. Rex Wockner: How about [Republican gay-rights activist and party advisor] Mary Matalin?
Rex Wockner: The things they won't say. Barney Frank: They learned from Pat Buchanan in 1992. And from the fact that the passage of DOMA [the Defense of Marriage Act] did not bring them any political benefits. ... People don't want to hear Jesse Helms calling their gay kids names, so the Republicans have got it on gay-bashing. Ten years ago they were actively trying to roll back pro-gay things when they happened; now they don't want to do that. Rex Wockner: They just wish the topic wouldn't come up. Barney Frank: When I first came to Congress, gay rights was for a lot of Democrats a "no way" issue. After AIDS, gay rights went from a "no way" issue to an "oh, shit" issue. "Oh, shit, I've got to vote on this." Now, for the Democrats, it's an easy vote and for the Republicans it's become an "oh, shit" issue. But they still vote wrong. ... They're in this transition phase where they can't do anything right but they don't want to do anything wrong. Rex Wockner: How about [Bush's gay AIDS adviser] Scott Evertz and the new openly gay U.S. ambassador to Romania? Barney Frank: Evertz is a throw-away. He's low-level. ... I doubt Bush has met him more than once. There's no sign he has any influence about anything. The ambassador appointment was a very useful thing ... but Bush didn't go out of his way to appoint this guy. He was a career foreign-service guy who had reached a point where he was due for an ambassadorship. To have refused him would have been gay-bashing. He was entitled to it. Rex Wockner: It's still progress that they let these things happen even though they know they'll get crap from the right-wing of the party. It's not much but it's progress. Barney Frank: There's no question. The country as a whole is getting better. But the Republicans are still lagging behind the country as a whole. Rex Wockner: Is TV helpful in making the nation more gay-friendly?
Barney Frank: Many of them aren't the kind of people who make you want to be like them, or like them. They're not admirable. Overwhelmingly, our progress is the result of person-to-person coming out. Television may make a minor contribution. Rex Wockner: Do gay activists and lobbyists work in a different environment since September 11th? Barney Frank: There's an attention issue but, actually, I think it's marginally better now. ... The post-September 11th rhetoric is, "Hate is bad." Religious fundamentalism has been somewhat discredited. We are able to argue, "Let's all be together, united we stand." That's helped us. Rex Wockner: What are the top three gay issues you're personally concerned about right now? Barney Frank: Getting high schools into the business of protecting gay kids. ... Domestic partnership, especially health benefits. The absence of universal health care is one of the worst things about America. On the federal level, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act [ENDA] will help, and also, repealing the really obnoxious part of DOMA that says even if a state recognizes a same-sex marriage, the federal government won't. Third, immigration rights for gay and lesbian people who have non-American lovers. These are areas where people are really hurting. With ENDA, we're at the point now where if the Democrats take control of the House, Congress will pass it. Bush wouldn't sign it. Rex Wockner: Are you sure? Barney Frank: Yeah. You have this faith in them that's based on nothing. Rex Wockner: I went to the Republican Convention as a reporter and hung out there all week. Barney Frank: And got bullshitted. Rex Wockner: At past Republican conventions, all there was for me to cover for the gay press was Young Americans for Freedom walking around in surgical masks carrying "AIDS Patrol" signs, and ACT UP getting beat to death by the cops. This time there were numerous stories from inside the convention hall. ... Barney Frank: But what have they done? Where have they been supportive? Rex Wockner: I guess it's just that they were so much less mean. Bar ney Frank: That's like you send your dog to obedience school and he comes back and he shits all over the house and you complain and the trainer says, "Well, at least he didn't bite you." ... What have they done affirmative? Rex Wockner: The crazy fundamentalist Christians are all upset that Bush is too pro-gay. They have a list of eight or nine things. Barney Frank: Scott Evertz. The ambassador.
Rex Wockner: Bush's meeting with gays during the campaign. Barney Frank: Jesus. What's the matter with you? Isn't that nice that he petted us on that? Rex Wockner: Putting an openly gay Congressman on stage at the Republican Convention to talk about trade issues. There's a list of things they're pissed off about. Barney Frank: What's the matter with you? Just because really crazy, vicious people -- I mean, you're validating the right wing with this. You're letting the crazies move the goal post. Rex Wockner: Under Reagan, the crazies had nothing to bitch about. Now they do. It's gotta mean there's been progress. Barney Frank: Yes, the country as a whole has gotten better, so they've mostly stopped gay-bashing. You haven't mentioned a single public policy that deals with the problems of mistreatment of gay and lesbian people. They're against a gay-inclusive hate-crimes bill. They're against ENDA. They have decided not to be uncivil now. They'll allow gay people who are willing to support them despite the anti-gay agenda, to do so. That's what it amounts to. It's leading you to infer there's some real stuff there. And there isn't. Rex Wockner: If they can't say anti-gay things as freely as they used to -- Barney Frank: That's better than if they did. But they're still against ENDA. And George Bush won't sign it. It's a mistake to give them credit for meeting with people. Rex Wockner: I have a gut feeling that we're getting to them. They can't say the things they said before. Barney Frank: Because they understand it will hurt them politically. That doesn't lead them to do anything good. Rex Wockner: But it will. Barney Frank: When? Rex Wockner: This new, less-nasty Republican environment vis-a-vis gay people is only two or three years old. Give it two or three more years. Barney Frank: Are they going to start voting differently? Rex Wockner: Some of them. Or something is going to come up and the right wing is going to want them to take an anti-gay position, and they're simply not going to do it. Barney Frank: You have no basis for that. Rex Wockner: Even saying, "We welcome gay people into the Republican party if they agree with our ideas and principles --" Barney Frank: You're self-esteem must be your toes. If we are prepared to swallow hard and support them even though they have all these anti-gay positions, they'll let us do that. Oh, lucky us! ... You see this as evolution, I see it as politicians being smart enough to know what not to say, and what they have to say. ... Rex Wockner: I think you have a stake in being careful that all of those gay white men out there with Republican leanings who nonetheless don't vote Republican because they are gay and they don't want to be discriminated against by Republicans -- you don't want to say anything, and you don't want me to write anything, that encourages those gay white men with Republican leanings to go ahead and vote Republican. Barney Frank: Not if they care about gay rights. If gay rights is not your issue, if you're an economic conservative, then go ahead and vote Republican. I don't want them to vote Republican on the grounds that this is a good way to advance gay rights. If you say, "Look, I'm fine, and I'm not being discriminated against, and my lover and I both have our health benefits," then that's a rational vote -- if you care more about taxes, or you think the Democrats are whacked out on the environment. ... We've made real progress. In your day-to-day life, are you discriminated against as a gay man? Rex Wockner: No. Never. Barney Frank: Fine. Unlike 30 years ago when almost everybody was. ... In many metropolitan areas today, you can live as a gay man or lesbian without anybody impinging on your life. Therefore, not everybody votes for the cause. They vote for things that affect their life. In a purely self-interest sense, that's rational [for a gay person to vote Republican]. Rex Wockner: I don't vote Republican. ... You know, it's not only that I never get discriminated against in any way, and that my gayness doesn't have any impact on my daily existence any more. I think I sometimes get special treatment because it's cool or hip to be gay now. Barney Frank: No question. That's absolutely right. I certainly get it. Rex Wockner: I get mainstream journalistic assignments because I'm gay. Barney Frank: I know that's right. ... Once it became clear my boyfriend and I were together and it got in the papers -- he works at World Bank -- we started getting invitations from straight colleagues of his to go to boring parties, because it was cool to have a gay couple. Rex Wockner: That's the environment now in urban areas of all First World countries. Barney Frank: Yes. Which is why, then, you get white gay men who are making good incomes -- if they weren't gay, they'd be voting 70 percent Republican, not 70 percent Democratic. That's the explanation. It's not a surprise that there are gay people who don't feel the negative. If you're purely self-interested, it's rational to vote Republican, as long as you don't tell me that's a way to help gay rights. Rex Wockner: Agreed. Thanks, Barney. |
Rep. Barney Frank: Serving his 11th term in the U.S. House 
Barney Frank at the 2000 Democratic National Convention 
Mary Matalin 
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