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 Harangue is Released Using Religion Against Anti-Bias Laws in U.S. Appeals Court Case Could Impact a Broad Range of Civil Rights Protections |
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Compiled by GayToday
Cincinatti, Ohio-- A Kentucky man who wants his purported personal religious
beliefs to free him from complying with civil rights laws at his business has
taken his fight to a federal appeals court, where final briefs were
filed in a constitutional "test case" that may impact a broad range of civil
rights protections nationwide.
Dr. J. Barrett Hyman, a gynecologist and Southern Baptist from Louisville, is seeking the right to discriminate against lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered (LGBT) people in employment at his medical practice. He is asking the court to greatly expand the local laws' current exemptions for religious institutions (like churches) -- and to instead exempt all employers who claim to have personal religious beliefs compelling them to discriminate. "Dr. Hyman and the right-wing group behind his lawsuit want to get a new legal precedent that would virtually knock out gay rights laws nationwide - taking down other civil rights laws in the process," said Leslie Cooper, staff attorney at the ACLU Lesbian & Gay Rights Project. "We also want to get the strongest precedent we can, to shut down these attacks on local communities once and for all. So we're glad he's appealed this and given us that chance." After a federal judge ruled against Hyman in March, he took the case to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit in Cincinnati. Final briefs were filed today by Hyman (represented by Pat Robertson's legal group), attorneys for the City of Louisville and Jefferson County, and the ACLU, which represents the local LGBT activists that passed the Fairness Ordinances in 1999. Hyman asked the appeals court to reverse the lower court's ruling, arguing that the local laws' current religious exemptions are, in fact, unfair because they only exempt religious institutions. Legal papers filed on Hyman's behalf repeatedly refer to the need to protect "believers such as Hyman" and "employers like Hyman." The ACLU took the unusual step of releasing excerpts from a deposition in the case that Cooper conducted of Hyman under oath. "With a federal appeals court being asked to carve up civil rights laws for 'employers like Hyman,' the public has a right to know just what would happen if we allowed this kind of exemption," Cooper said. "What kinds of employers might be released from all our civil rights laws? What exactly are the beliefs that might merit such an exemption?"
"Let's be clear: Dr. Hyman has a right to believe whatever he wants -- but he doesn't have a right to insist that people who work with and for him believe it, too," Cooper said. "This country's commitment to fairness and justice is stronger than any attempt to use religion as a weapon against laws that, in fact, protect religious liberty and ensure equality. That's what this is about." Communities nationwide grapple with how to protect religious liberty while prohibiting discrimination, the ACLU said, and the 34-page federal court ruling against Hyman can be a useful tool in striking this balance. That ruling is at: http://www.kywd.uscourts.gov/. Additional information on LGBT rights laws - including specific information on appropriately protecting religious freedom without weakening bias protections - is at the ACLU's Equality Toolkit: http://www.aclu.org/GayRights. J. Barrett Hyman, M.D. v. City of Louisville, et al., No.01-5531. Transcript: 'Employers like Dr. Hyman' Legal papers filed in a federal appeals court on behalf of Dr. J. Barrett Hyman repeatedly refer to the need to protect "employers like Hyman" and "believers such as Hyman." To provide a better understanding of what kind of employers and beliefs are at issue - and, by extension, what would happen if the courts allowed the kind of civil rights law exemptions Hyman seeks - the American Civil Liberties Union released excerpts from Dr. Hyman's sworn deposition in the case. The following excerpts are from a deposition taken March 3, 2000, in Louisville, Kentucky. ACLU Lesbian & Gay Rights Project staff attorney Leslie Cooper conducted the deposition. These excerpts do not represent an entire transcript, but they are provided in their context. The headings and subheads before each section were either selected (in the case of quotes) or written by the ACLU, not by Dr. Hyman. 'IT DOESN'T TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST...' Dr. Hyman discusses whether he knows any LGBT people personally. ACLU: Do you know anyone who is lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered? Hyman: Yes . ACLU: How do you know them? Hyman: My niece is lesbian. And I have had some contacts with a few over my years of life, but no names that I can remember . ACLU: And how do you know your niece is a lesbian? Hyman: She openly proclaims that she is, and she has a young girl that she openly admits that she's sexually involved with. ACLU: She told you? Hyman: Yes ... And she moved to Los Angeles so she could be comfortable there with the other lesbians. [...] ACLU: Now, since you have been an adult, have you ever had any friendships with men or women who are lesbian or gay or bisexual or transgendered? Hyman: My niece. ACLU: Besides her no one else? Hyman: Not that I was aware of ... Although I know some doctors who are, and, you know, I respect them for being a physician, but not for their behavior. ACLU: And those doctors, how do you know that they are gay or lesbian? Hyman: Because they have - they demonstrated in public, they have - ACLU: Can you explain what you mean by demonstrated? Hyman: You know, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see a homosexual displaying sexual behavior with, you know, another man in a swimming pool, you know, with affectionate, you know, actions toward them. The fact that he got a divorce and has pictures of his lover in his apartment, you know, I think it's very sad. I would like him to be different, you know, because it's going to ruin his life. But I respect him, you know, with his ability, what he is able to do. I just feel sorry for him. 'A PROCLIVITY TOWARD PURSUING PREDATORY SEX...' Dr. Hyman explains what shapes his views about LGBT people. ACLU: Now the other people that you mentioned that you have had - that you have known in the past who are lesbian or gay, are those people you met through church, through your friends, how did you know them? Hyman: I wouldn't expect I would ever meet lesbian or homosexuals through my church. That would be an oxymoron. I would think that it would be as a child growing up coming in contact with a soliciting adult that wants sex from boys. And through college contact with soliciting active males that are trying to seduce men. ACLU: Now, aside from the experiences you mentioned a few minutes ago ... have you ever had any other experiences with lesbians, gay men, bisexuals or transgendered people? Hyman: Well, I would think that you could see what they have done on TV programs and their marches and the behavioral patterns in public... ACLU: Going back to personal experiences, aside from what you have observed on the news or television, that sort of thing, are there any other individual experiences that you have had with someone that was lesbian or gay or who you believe was lesbian or gay, that you felt was a negative experience? Hyman: Well, you know, in college we had homosexuals that would invite you out and you wouldn't know they were homosexuals until they made their pass at you. You know, and you have to, you know, resist it and say no. ACLU: Did this happen often to you in college? Hyman: It happened on a - about three occasions or so, I would think, or more, you know, where homosexuals would be revealed. In those days it was something that wasn't made public. They were in the closet, and it would be hard to tell unless they made their lifestyle known. [...] ACLU: You mentioned earlier some incidents involving what sounds like predatory sexual behavior toward you when you were a college student and even worse when you were a child. Does that factor into your assessment of the immoral character of lesbians and gay men? Hyman: Yes. ACLU: Do you think that all gay people are sexual predators? Hyman: No. ACLU: Or more so than other people? Hyman: I would think that, you know, when you see some of the actions that are displayed and some of the things that you see that are coming out of the legalization of their immoral behavior becoming more and more public, you would have to believe that they have a proclivity toward pursuing predatory sex ... And it's a great danger when, you know, legalize their immoral behavior and they become more and more bold. And there is more and more danger that they want to pursue positions where they can fulfill their lust. 'I WOULD HAVE HIRED HER IF SHE WOULD HAVE REPENTED...' Dr. Hyman discusses whether he's ever had LGBT job applicants. ACLU: Have you ever faced a situation with someone who is lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgendered seeking a job at your office? Hyman: Yes. ACLU: When did that happen? Hyman: Well, my niece [identified previously by Dr. Hyman as a lesbian] would have liked to work for me. ACLU: Was she seeking to work in your office? Hyman: She was seeking to work but not really directly, but I would have hired her if she would have repented and changed her ways. But I wasn't going to. ACLU: I'm sorry, I'm not clear on this. Did she apply or ask you if you would hire her? Hyman: She was looking for work ... at times. ACLU: And you told her that you would hire her if she would repent and change her ways, and she wasn't willing to do that, and you didn't hire her, am I getting that right? Hyman: Right, right... ACLU: Since then, has anyone else who is lesbian or gay sought employment in your office? Hyman: Not that I really knew for sure. ACLU: Anyone you suspected? Hyman: Well, it - no, I can't say I have ... First of all, I would think it would be unusual for me to be confronted with a lesbian trying to work for me after I have been here for 30 years and they know I'm pro-life and pro-family, so people that are contrary to my beliefs would not likely think that they would work for me. 'IF SOMEBODY HAS A TEMPTATION TO DRINK, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE ALCOHOL IN FRONT OF THEM...' Dr. Hyman explains why, particularly as a gynecologist, he wouldn't hire lesbians. ACLU: Now, when you interview a candidate for a position, what sort of information do you ask them for? Hyman: Well, I would certainly want to know if they are sexually oriented correctly. ACLU: Have you asked that question of applicants? Hyman: Yes. ACLU: How do you phrase the question? Hyman: "Do you think it's proper to have sexual relationships with women and to pursue them?" ACLU: Assuming it's a female applicant? Hyman: I don't have males working for me. ACLU: Is that a matter of policy or is that a matter of happenstance? Hyman: Policy. ACLU: Why is that? Hyman: Because I'm a gynecologist, an obstetrician, and my patients would not want a male or a woman who is pursuing sex with a female working in my office... ACLU: Now, you mentioned two things in that last comment of yours, that your patients would not want a man coming into the examining room or a woman who wants to pursue sexual relations with women. Did I state that correctly? Hyman: Or approved of it. ACLU: That your patients would not want someone who approved of it? Hyman: Yes. ACLU: How would they know? Hyman: They would know by the time it would be brought out, because most people that are, I believe, that are lesbian and homosexual males don't want to keep it a secret anymore. They want to make it seem like it's an alternative acceptable lifestyle, and I think within time it would come out and my patients would be repulsed and not want it and leave my practice. . ACLU: So that is a concern about potential loss of patients, is that right? That you could lose patients? Hyman: No, that's no concern of mine. It's a concern of - it's a hurtful thing for my patients. They would not want that. ... ACLU: So is your concern that the patients would feel uncomfortable with a lesbian assistant, say, because they would feel uncomfortable because she might have sexual desire toward the patient? Hyman: I would think so. You know, I can't talk from a woman's point of view, but I would think that would be obvious. ACLU: Is that one of your concerns that brings you here today? Hyman: Yes, yes. ACLU: Do you have the same concern, for example, about a gay man who is assisting? Clearly there wouldn't be the same sexual desire issue. Hyman: Well, it would be an image issue. The same image that would be there would be harmful to my image as a pro-life, pro-family Christian. It would destroy my image and their opinion of me. ACLU: So your reputation would suffer, is that right? Hyman: Yes. ACLU: Would your reputation suffer even if your patients knew you were required by law not to discriminate? Hyman: Yes. ACLU: So you feel that your patients would expect you to violate the law? Hyman: Absolutely. [...] ACLU: [Would you] discriminate in employment against someone who acknowledges an attraction to people of the same sex but has no intention of acting upon it? Hyman: I think that it might be a problem with my patients. And I would have to take that into consideration, and I would be concerned that the thought and attraction would, you know, be too much, and they should probably not be around women who are exposed. They should get another job... ACLU: And what would you be concerned about in the context of them working in your office - that they would molest a patient, or can you sort of elaborate on that? Hyman: Well, they would let it be known in some way, and some way start a relationship, pursue it. If they are tempted, they may give in to their temptation. It would just fuel their problem. I wouldn't want to encourage that... ACLU: You were concerned about hiring someone who acknowledges same-sex attraction, but does not act on it. Is that based on your religious beliefs? Hyman: I think it's only common sense that if somebody has a temptation to drink, you wouldn't have alcohol in front of them or if they have a temptation to take drugs, you wouldn't let them handle drugs. You know, the same way, same way with sex problems. If they admit they really have a problem, I would try to get them to go through some help. [Elaborating on the same question later:] It's because I don't believe that they would be able to control their urge ... and my patients would be offended. [...] ACLU: You have talked a lot about concerns about how your patients would feel if there were a lesbian assistant in the office. ... Are you concerned that she will feel uncomfortable because she may feel that the assistant would be desiring her? Hyman: My patients are mostly Christians, and they share my values. Now, there are some of my patients [who] wouldn't care, but the majority of my patients would be offended to have a lesbian in the room with them when they were exposed, their body was exposed. Whether the person was, you know, attracted to them or not, they wouldn't want to take a chance like that. And I wouldn't want to put my patients in that position, and they wouldn't expect me to do that. They have enough trust in my integrity that I wouldn't do that ever. ACLU: And what about employees of yours who don't have interaction with patients in the examining room? Hyman: Well, then that's another form of the image that I am trying to portray. If I had a receptionist that sometimes will help assist our bookkeeper, all my office workers can come into the exam room. But it would still be of the image that I wouldn't want to have in my office, and I won't have, that's putting approval on immoral behavior. And I think that's what it would be doing. I'm not going to let that happen. [...] ACLU: [Follow-up in a line of questioning of whether Dr. Hyman would still feel compelled to discriminate if his business was in another field.] So it wouldn't matter what kind of business you had? Hyman: It's more so with a gynecologist, absolutely more so. ... When it comes to a lesbian in a gynecologist's office, I would think it should not even be, you know, considered that it would be something that a gynecologist would accept. ... Especially a Christian gynecologist. ACLU: Someone who promises to you not to disclose her sexual orientation to anyone in your office, you are still concerned about hiring that person? Hyman: I think it's still the image. The witness. The appearance of evil. It would come out. ACLU: So you wouldn't trust them to keep their word and not disclose? Hyman: Why would you trust somebody that is breaking the Ten Commandments and all the rules of God to tell me they wouldn't lie? That is ridiculous. That's like a Boy Scout leader saying that he wouldn't molest boys, he just likes big boys. I wouldn't believe it. I mean, if he's doing something awful like that, he's going to lie, too. So I would think he would lie. ACLU: So you believe gay people are more likely to lie than other people? Hyman: If it suits their cause. 'I'M CONCERNED ABOUT EVERYBODY'S SEX LIFE...' Dr. Hyman explains how applicants and employees reveal information about their sex lives or moral views to him. ACLU: How do you find out [if a job applicant engages in premarital sex]? Hyman: I ask all my patients that. I don't have any patient that I don't know their sex life. I'm concerned about everybody's sex life because I'm a gynecologist. ACLU: I'm asking about employees, though. Hyman: I would be concerned about their sex life. I might ask them, you know, tell me about your sex life. ACLU: You have asked applicants that question? Hyman: Yes.... ACLU: Do you ask them any other questions about their - their moral conduct or beliefs? Hyman: Well, you know, I would like to know if, you know, their - you know, they believe in the Bible, you know, the word of God. ACLU: Do you ask them that? Hyman: I think that I wouldn't - not come directly out and say that, but I would be talking to them about the things that I have around my office, you know, and they would probably be in the room with a picture of Mother Theresa and I have Bible verses, and I might ask them what do you think of that. And then they will come out and usually tell me where they go to church and things like that. ACLU: So that would be an important piece of information for you in assessing a potential employee? Hyman: Yes. 'WE DON'T WANT ANYBODY TO DISHONOR GOD...' Dr. Hyman explains how religious views in areas other than sexual orientation affect his employment decisions. ACLU: [In context of another area of questioning, asks how Dr. Hyman's religious views affect hiring and other employment decisions.] Hyman: It would require the individual to have certain moral values to be fit to work for me. ACLU: Okay. What are those values? Hyman: The values are that the family unit, that sex is for monogamous marital individuals, and that immoral sexual behavior is sinful and wrong, and must not be promoted, and that killing a baby is murder and wrong. Those values are very important to me and to my [business] partner, and those would be taken in consideration if we were going to hire someone. ACLU: Any other moral values that you would take into consideration? Hyman: Well, of course. We don't want anybody to dishonor God, you know, and make images and idols and to steal and lie and do all those other things that are wrong in life. If we could detect that, that would make them unfit to work in my practice. ACLU: Can I go back to the prior item you mentioned, dishonoring God by making images and idols - did I say that right? Can you explain what it means? Hyman: Well, it means that some people, you know, make alcohol a god or sex a god, or live for selfish reasons for lust of the flesh and the lust of the eye and the boastful pride of life, those kind of things are making kind of an idol. Anything that takes the place of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in my opinion is an idol in a person's life, so you know, I would take that in consideration. ACLU: So, for example, say a Hindu who had literal physical idols or the prototype of what people might call idols of various gods and goddesses, that sort of thing, would that be problematic? Hyman: Not as much as - I mean, that is more of a - that is not a behavioral problem. That is something that, you know, I think I can deal with. But it's - what we are considering here is an immoral behavior. There are some Hindu doctors that I work with that are absolutely wonderful individuals that I love and care for and I think have very high morals, you know. Really basically I believe they are misled, and I can maybe witness to them and have them I suppose witness to convert them if I could, and I don't have any problem with someone that is not immoral. I look at homosexuality, lesbians and male homosexuals as immoral people. And that is a bad image in my office. I think a moral person is not a bad image. 'I HELPED HER THROUGH THAT ... SHE DIDN'T KILL THE BABY...' Dr. Hyman discusses the employee he helped "recover" from being unmarried and pregnant. ACLU: Now, are you willing to hire both married and unmarried people? Hyman: Of course. I have done that before. One of my best employees was a single pregnant young lady that I helped. ACLU: Single pregnant young lady? Hyman: Yeah, and she came through and was one of the most devoted women that I ever had. And she eventually got married and she is very happy and pleased. So I certainly gave her a chance to recover. ACLU: Recover from what? Hyman: An unmarried pregnancy. ACLU: I guess I'm not understanding what that means. How do you - what recovery is required? Hyman: The recovery that a person has, it should be, that they are concerned if they are single and pregnant, that it's not the best in our society for her or the baby or her family, and that is an emotional thing she has to recover and work out. So you would have to help them through that. And they have decisions to make whether they are going to kill the baby or not, and I helped her through that where she didn't kill the baby and she kept it and is very happy now and found somebody that she is secure with. ... 'THEY ARE BECOMING VERY BOLD...THEY ARE NOT FEARFUL OR CONCERNED ABOUT REVEALING IT.' Dr. Hyman explains the difference between straight people disclosing their sexual orientation and LGBT people doing the same. ACLU: Did you ask [a single female employee who had a boyfriend] whether or not she engages in sexual relations with her boyfriend? Hyman: Most of my employees are my patients. I mean, I almost always have the people that work for me choose to have me as their gynecologist. So, you know, I'm very intimate with the knowledge of all of them. So I would know. And if they were, you know, pursuing, you know, a relationship that was harmful to them, I would, you know, tell them that I was, you know, worried about the, concerned about them. I might pray for them, I might give them some scriptures to read. And they would know that I would always want what is best for them, but I wouldn't reject them or fire them over that... ACLU: Let's say a single employee of yours who is also a patient has a boyfriend for a long period of time, and as her doctor you know that she is engaging in sexual relations with her boyfriend [but has no plans to marry him]. That wouldn't be grounds to fire her? Hyman: It would be grounds to fire them if they were promoting it and flaunting it and making it a public, you know, thing. And they would know that would be opposed to my thinking. I would probably, you know, have her quoting Bible verses on the back of my card every day if she could. ACLU: Quoting it to you? Hyman: No, to - you know - well, it would be something that would be nice if she would. ACLU: So as long as [the employee with a boyfriend with whom she has non-marital sex] kept it private, that wouldn't be a ground to fire her? Hyman: No. ACLU: But if a lesbian or gay man kept it private, how would you feel about that? Hyman: I don't think it's possible. I would find it hard to believe that that would happen. I would think that it would eventually come out and I would be concerned about it. ACLU: Why do you feel it would come out? Hyman: Because it almost always would come out if a person in this society, in this day and age, has legal protection to allow them to display their behavior. ... Our society is embracing homosexuality. I'm not going to embrace it. So it's being embraced. They are becoming very bold. They are becoming public. They are not fearful or concerned about revealing it. 'IF THE PERSON COULD CONVINCE ME THAT THEY HAVE CHANGED ... IT WOULDN'T BE A PROBLEM.' Dr. Hyman professes his belief in ex-gay ministries, and says he would only hire LGBT people if they had undergone a full conversion. ACLU: Would you feel good about turning someone away from a lesbian or gay relationship to a heterosexual life? Hyman: Oh, absolutely. Matter of fact, I have phone numbers and lists of dozens of organizations. You know, I encourage them to go to Southeast Christian here, Exodus International, Pathways, Cross-Over Ministries. There are dozens of places, Homosexuals Anonymous, all kinds of places they can go that I would encourage them to go to get help. Because I know that thousands and thousands of lesbians and homosexuals have changed their lifestyle and changed and it's, you know, been, you know, sanctified. You know, Jesus can change a person's heart even if you're in that kind of lifestyle ... So if you really care for someone, you want them to come out of that disruptive lifestyle. ... ACLU: But you wouldn't want to employ lesbians or gay men who you might be able to help with that in the same way [that you helped the pregnant single employee change her life around]? Hyman: Because that is a behavior problem that is ongoing. Now, if the person could convince me that they have changed, you know, and they weren't going to make a habit of pursuing that and promoting it as if it's acceptable to me in my practice, it wouldn't be a problem. ACLU: Okay. So, for example, somebody who came to interview with you who said I have - I'm a woman and I had sexual relations with a woman in the past, but I don't intend to do that anymore, that wouldn't be a problem for you? Hyman: No problem... And they would have to say also that they would not promote it and believe it was okay. I do have lesbian patients that I care for and helped and minister to. It's not like I don't have lesbian patients. I would not hire some of them because of their lifestyle, but that doesn't mean I can't care for them and help them. 'AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE BORN THAT WAY ... BLACK PEOPLE CAN'T CHANGE.' Dr. Hyman discusses what he calls the "wonderful morals of special rights for blacks" and whether religion compels racial discrimination. ACLU: Do you have any religious objection to hiring people of other races? Hyman: No, but the Bible specifically tells me not to be with homosexuals. ... It's in the Bible. It says draw yourself away from them. ... It doesn't talk about others like that. ACLU: What if your religious beliefs did prohibit you from hiring African Americans, for example. Should you be entitled to? Hyman: No, of course not. ACLU: Why not? Hyman: Because that is something they are born with. ACLU: But the question is, if someone has a religious belief that they cannot hire African Americans, and that's a religious belief, why should they not get the same treatment you get? Hyman: Because African Americans are born that way. That's not a behavior problem they can alter or modify. Most blacks that I know are offended when, you know, lesbians and homosexuals combine - you know, attach yourself to the wonderful morals of special rights for blacks. They're offended by it because it's not related whatsoever. They don't want you to have the same moral standing as they do. They have a definite standing to be protected, as they are born that way. Homosexuals are not born that way. They choose to make wrong decisions and they can change. Black people can't change. ... ACLU: Okay. Well, let's talk about interracial dating. Do you find that to be something that violates religious beliefs? Hyman: It's not pertinent to my objection. I want to have an exemption so I can choose to discriminate against homosexual behavior. I'm not concerned right now about those other things that you are bringing in because I just don't think they are related in any way. ACLU: Well, I do. And I get to ask the questions right now. So, you know, in the news lately we have been hearing a lot about Bob Jones University and their policy on interracial dating, for example. Somebody who holds that religious belief, should they be able to exercise that religious belief, even though it would discriminate against somebody, based on race? Hyman: [- Objection and discussion from Frances Manion, of Pat Robertson's legal group, representing Dr. Hyman. Complaining that the question is an attempt to "ridicule or harass the witness in some fashion," Mr. Manion takes the unusual step of instructing Dr. Hyman to refuse to answer the question. Dr. Hyman does not answer. The deposition comes to a close.] |
