What kind of person is Steve Simmons? He is now 45 years old. He told me that he did not start having sex until he was in his twenties, and did not explore his gay sexuality until he was in his mid-twenties.

But the real story has still not come out. Simmons has alleged to me that Sam Manzie was sexually molested several times when the boy was four and a half years old. And also that Nick Manzie, Sam's father, beat the boy from the time he was 6 until he was 12, when Sam began to hit him back.

Steve has a wry sense of humor that is always present; he is very outspoken and pulls few punches. One of the things he believes firmly is that sexuality is not something you can or should push on to anyone else. This is something, he says, homophobes do, by pushing their heterosexuality onto gays.

"If an adult takes it upon themselves to get involved with a child, no matter what the kid's age, they must be responsible for it. It doesn't matter if its sexual or platonic."

He accepts his part in Sam's Manzie's life, something that he feels Sam's parents, his teachers, and the police never did. And what he'd like most of all is that the boy get the therapy he needs, instead of life-without-parole in prison, which is what the Ocean County Prosecutor, can legally ask.

Mostly what I have learned from dealing with Steve Simmons is that the condition of his and Manzie's life—both together and separate—has been a series of often unseen passages and links; and neither the straight press nor the D.A.'s office is willing, or able, to trace them or open them up for understanding.

Steve is, by the way, looking for contact with the outside world. He is facing what could be a long prison term for being involved in a situation many gay men understand—both from the point of view of being a younger boy exploring gay sexuality, and as mature men. So he is asking for readers to try to reach him. His address is Steve Simmons, MCCI J-2, Freehold, NJ 07728.

The questions I have asked Steve are fairly involved, and like the passages and links I mentioned before, the questions open up whole blocks or passages in his life.

Perry Brass: Can you tell us something about yourself? Where you grew up, what kind of experiences you've had before you got involved with Sam? You said you did not "come out as gay" until you were in your mid-20s. When you were younger, did you think about guys a lot—older or younger guys; guys your own age?

Like a lot of men (myself included), you seem outside of the stereotyped "gay community" of bars, clubs, etc. Is this true?

Do you feel excluded from it? Did you ever hang out in a certain area (the Village in New York, for instance)? When did you first become aware that you were interested in younger guys? You've said to me that you thought pedophilia was "an addiction." It is a consuming interest, and like drugs it can take over a lot of your life. Have you felt this way—that it just took over your life?

Steve Simmons: I should for this question explain the addiction. It's not like drugs, but like alcohol.

My fantasies as a teen were about kids my own age. I had a crush on guys like Billy Mummy [from the "Lost in Space" series] and Jay North, in the show "Maya"—he was 13 or 14 then, not in "Dennis the Menace." But I didn't know they were crushes. I fixated on teens and this need was never fulfilled, because I couldn't have named it as "gay." I didn't know "gay" at all.

Once I tasted this forbidden fruit, it became an addiction. I couldn't accept being gay and teens allowed me to pass it off as "Well, we don't make love or anything, so it's not being Gay." That was the pre-1985 me.

I did care about the kids. I was always concerned about them in school and going to college and not being on the streets, etc. I never used force on anyone, of any age or sex. I accepted "no" from them.

After I spent two years in jail [on a pedophilia charge], I learned a lot about myself. I accepted the fact that I was gay. I accepted my addiction to teens and knew that I could do good for them, but I couldn't have them. I had to accept that any kid I got involved with, for any reason, that I had to accept responsibility for. That these kids would listen, hence what I told them must be honest and good, and not abusive or self-serving.

It is a misconception that pedophiles run rampant on the Internet.

There are "bad" pedophiles around. There always were, and there always will be. There are also bad con men—they always will be there, too. Amazingly, online, you have bad people. You have skin heads, killers, rapists, pedophiles, con men, dirty politicians, all sorts of "bad" people. But you have them everywhere, in every city, and [of] every race, color, and creed.

If you took the amount of "molestations" because of the Internet, the percentage would be no greater than before the Internet. The reason sex crimes are up, over 20 years ago, is simply that more are reported these days. We also have more cancer cases, because people are living longer—and there are just more people now.

Back to me: I was born in London in 1953, and came here on May 12, 1959. I grew up in Brooklyn and was a fairly typical Jewish kid from Canarsie. I played baseball, football, basketball, joined a swim club, and went to sleep-away camp. I marched for civil rights and was against the War. That was what the world saw.

Although I wouldn't want to seem a stereotype, I also loved Broadway show music and cooking. I learned to sew and knit. I loved my cat—all my friends had dogs.

I don't dislike women. I have been married. I never had a problem performing in bed. I have never found a good lover. I've had lovers who were both younger and older—for different reasons—but my own fantasies are more satisfying for me than any partner I've ever had.

Because of this "curse," I go out of my way to please my partner. I feel I should, and—to the best of my knowledge—I've usually been successful. My boyfriends have ranged from teens to 60's.

I've never understood what anyone sees in me. I never will. I can't be possessed and can never give 100% of myself to anyone. This is not a sexual thing, but an emotional one. It's in my make up. My life is a conscious effort to do good. Steve [Simmons's former lover, who was in his 60s] who is 6'5", loved me totally. I knew this. I am not an emotional person. I'm not demonstrative. I'm systematic and logical. (It sucks being me, honestly.) I like kissing and cuddling and touching, but I feel that examining what I do and how it affects those I care about is more important.

Nobody will ever understand how much time I take to do things that others will enjoy or benefit from. They will not understand how much of a dilemma Sam was for me.

Perry Brass: Tell us about your relationship with Sam Manzie—how it started online? What made you decide that he was someone you wanted to concentrate on? Did he decide? How aggressive was he in pursuing you? Did he back away from you, show fear about you? How did you get him to trust you, or was it the other way around—that he had to make you feel that you could trust him?

Steve Simmons: When I first me Sam on line, he thought I was what he had been looking for. He said so in his statement to the police. He had tried for 2 years to get an older guy to meet him and take him home. (I'm not convinced I was the first or last.)

I was at a low point—late July, 1996. My nephew had been dead one year from cancer. My business was in trouble because of a contract that had gone belly up.

Like any addict, I screwed up when he came on to me. I didn't know what he looked like, nor did he me. It was a courtship that lasted about 10 days online. He gave me his phone number. No other kid ever did. He pushed to meet me. I didn't fight hard. In the first week I knew him online (from a private room), he changed screen names a dozen times. He told me about "phishing" (the trick to get people's screen names and pass words).

I wasn't functioning at 100%, or I would have known that he wasn't stable. I was too flattered by his attention. We met on Aug. 9th at the Freehold Mall. He had a charm about him, but he was more geeky than good-looking. When we finished the movie and I went to go home, he begged me to take him along. We argued about this for 3 hours, and he confirmed that in his story.

I was stupid. I let him win. I made the commitment and couldn't get out without hurting him. I didn't know his story yet, or his instability.

Big Steve [Simmons's older lover] was pissed off—deservedly so, and walked out. I'm sure you understand that I cannot go into details about our meetings until both cases are over. But I will assure you it was as far from "wild debauchery" as you can get. We did a lot of talking.

That night he cuddled next to me (not naked, either) and fell asleep. I never in my life fell asleep holding anyone, but I did that night.

Over the next two weeks, Sam told people on line different stories, depending on his mood. (It was love/hate for him, but I'll explain why in a sec.) One day I was the best lover in the world. The next day I sucked. He hated me the next day. He was mine forever the next day. The next day I raped him. This went on every other day. One day another kid said [to Sam] he was a virgin until he had anal sex. So Sam told people we had anal sex.

I never knew what to expect when I went online with him.

Perry Brass: How would you described your feelings for each other—they seem very complicated? I feel that they were not just purely sexual, as the straight press wants to paint this—is this true?

Steve Simmons: My first confrontation with Sam was over his game of love/hate. It was obvious he was pushing me to see how far I would go before I left him. Everyone left Sam. This was my first insight into his history. He'd been hurt badly and expected it from me.

This was when I told him I'd always be his friend, and I would never turn my back on him. If I ever did, he'd know why because several times over the next year I had to tell him "Sam, pull back, because you can't push me any further or I won't come back." That usually stopped him. I told him that the lies and games would cease, and we would find out why he was so insecure.

Perry Brass: Can you tell us more about his relationships with his family?

Steve Simmons: I would be talking to him on the phone, and he'd be yelling at his mother or father. I'd tell him he needed to learn to communicate with them, and he'd say he couldn't talk to his father. I'd tell him he needed therapy, and he'd say his parents wouldn't go for it. I asked him why he couldn't talk to his father. He said he felt suffocated when he was with his father.

Perry Brass: After you met, what did you talk about? Did he talk about his parents a lot? Did he reveal a lot to you about himself?

Steve Simmons: In September he told me he had been molested as a little kid. He would never say by who, but he described it this way. "This big guy laid on top of me and touched me all over." He never said more, but suddenly part of the Sam Manzie puzzle became clear to me: the hate, the feelings of suffocation, the beatings. I asked him many times, as we had discussed this a lot, who had done this. His reply was always aggressive and defensive—"I don't remember." It was never, "I'm not sure," or any variation of that.

I told his lawyers. I thought they knew about it. I guess I was wrong.

He told me everything about himself. I was the only person he trusted. How could I not love him? How could I turn on him? How could I not try to protect him?

Perry Brass: How did Sam react to you?

Steve Simmons: Sam was totally jealous when it came to me. If I had anyone online, he tried to get rid of them. He canceled out several of my friends (he was amazing on the computer, what he could do), so there would be more time for him. He badmouthed kids I liked, so I wouldn't like them. He tried to get rid of Big Steve. When I told him I was going to Florida with Big Steve, he told me I couldn't. I'd have to move to New Jersey. He meant it.

Perry Brass: How did this make you feel?

Steve Simmons: I quickly decided not to meet him again. He wanted a lover. He needed a friend, a father figure. If I met him anymore, he'd make me his lover, and I couldn't allow that, so I gave him excuses so we never met again. I did remain friends. We talked online and on the phone. I was always telling him to stay in school, get therapy, deal with his parents. I told him he was a good kid, a smart kid. I told him I loved him and I meant it.

In some ways, I was afraid of him. I knew his temper, and I thought if I deserted him, he'd seek revenge. Yet I didn't want to desert him. He was so scarred from growing up. He had nobody at all. He became my albatross. Kids always trust me. It's who I am. I don't judge. I encourage. I give respect and treat them properly. They sense my concern is genuine. I'm what is called a good listener, and I'm usually objective.

Perry Brass: Can you tell us about other kids you've met online?

Steve Simmons: There are dozens of kids online that could always come to me. I would always take time to go one-on-one if they needed it. I talked many kids down from suicide. I don't know if they would have done it, but that's not important. I talked Sam out of it three times. I went through their coming out to their parents, and also through their first boyfriends.

To me the hardest was suicide. I think it is a waste for young people to do it, because they don't know what life will bring them, but I feel it [suicide] is their right. I tell them that there is a better world in the future—usually, all they need is someone to care and I do. In my book [a book Simmons has written about parent-child relationships] is the story of Ed, a Japanese exchange student, 16, living in Georgia, and how he killed himself. Despite my efforts, I lost him.

My pet peeve: children can't communicate because their parents never taught them. They grow up never trusting anyone over 30, etc. We never learn how to talk, just how to yell!

Teens will talk to you, if you let them. They will listen, if you remember their attention span. I've always been able to do this.

Kids can admit they're wrong if you show them it's allowed. Sam's last words to me, Sept. 21st, were, "When I'm legal, we can be together."

Perry Brass: Tell us about the "sting" situation, when the FBI bugged Sam's phone.

Steve Simmons: During Sam's call to me, on Sept. 17, he signaled me and when I got off the phone I told two friends online that Sam called and the police were listening. I was told I was paranoid (I hear that a lot, but my paranoia is usually correct). When he called again on Sept. 19th, I pretty much let him know that his message was received. Unfortunately, that tape was "erased accidentally" by the police.

{Please see note at end of interview}

Remember, there have been no delays, no psychiatric stuff certainly, no evidence to collect, and it's only a second degree crime at worst (10 years maximum). If you are shaking your head, so am I. It's amazing.

If Sam is sentenced to prison for the rest of his life, he will kill himself. I could stop him, but I won't. He has that right, and I would in his place. If Sam kills himself (my lawyer's client was 2 cells away from Sam when he hanged himself), I wash my hands of this matter. The blood is on their hands. Let them live with it. Two deaths will lead to three.

Okay, back on target. Sam and I last spoke on Sept. 21. I told you his last words. He also told me to run and not to tell him where, because he was afraid the police and his parents would "force" him (he said "force") to tell.

He told me he was scared what they would do to him when they found out what he did to the equipment. [Sam Manzie destroyed the bugging equipment set into his phone line.]

A kid should never be scared of the police and his parents. He told me he never wanted to help the police and he was sorry he ever did. He told me he wouldn't help them and he wouldn't testify against me. He said he "hated" (he used the word "hated") what his parents made him do, and he hated the police.

Perry Brass: What did you say to him?

Steve Simmons: All I could say to him was it will be okay. They won't touch you. Just stick to your guns and it'll be okay. I knew I would be deported [Simmons is still a British citizen] no matter what happened, but I didn't tell him. I also knew if I ran, Sam would fall apart and probably run away from home to find me.

I decided—bad decision it turned out to be—to face it head on, cooperate, do whatever time was needed (I figured 12 to 18 months tops), get deported and get on with my life. To protect Sam at all costs and make sure that my online friends were protected. (I did not want any teens harassed or outed over this. If I didn't care, I'd give you 30 screen names of people to confirm this story.)

I was concerned that Sam might try suicide when I was arrested. I told Det. Nick Severino this on the 24th [of Sept.]. He said, "It's not your concern." But it was, and should have been his.

I had a $50,000 bail on an "E" Felony charge (2-4 years max, usual; but $10,000 or less bail). They knew Sam wouldn't testify, it said so in my discovery. [Note: "Discovery" is the evidence that the Prosecutor has to turn over to the Defense—in this case, it was 90 pages of evidence, most of which consisted of an interview with Manzie's two parents.] They wouldn't let me go, because they were afraid Sam would run away to me and we would leave the country. I bet you now wish we had! I know I do.

Perry Brass: And then this story would have had a different ending?

Steve Simmons: If I had had bail, Sam would not have become angry and suicidal late in the week. He would have found a way to talk to me—there is no question of that. He would have used a phone card and pay phones from school or anywhere. Sept. 27 would have come along, with no death. Eventually charges would have been dropped against me and I would have been deported. In March, of 2000, Sam turns 18. He would have come to live with me.

That is the scenario if the police did not panic—and we all lived happily ever after (well, not me; but I asked for it—and I'd get it, I guess).

20/20 hindsight is wonderful, but unfortunately Sam was molested. He was beaten before he met me, then he told his shrink a fantasy. I told him, when he told me he was starting therapy, to tell all—hold nothing back dealing with your feelings. What I should have told him was just make sure and leave my name out of it. Don't put my name in it at all. I was sure that since I had very little to do with this situation—I was a small part of the story, really—my name would make very little difference. I was wrong there.

Perry Brass: It seems like there are many twists, turns, and problems in this story. Are these part of Sam's own mental instability?

Steve Simmons: It's easy to see Sam's story about us is inaccurate and inconsistent. His description of me is wrong. If indeed we spent all this time naked, making love, he should have mentioned a 14" scar down my back from two surgeries. His description of me, at 5'10", 240 pounds, and a 40" waist, as "big, not fat, but muscular." That's a little off. His description of anal sex— "It hurt at first, but then the pain stopped and it felt good"— is a textbook description that every kid online knows.

Does he believe we were passionate lovers? He may because it meant something to him in status online; after telling stories enough, you believe them. I've exaggerated stories about my life in the Army, etc., for so many years that I'm not all that sure what's true anymore about these three years. It happens. The guy talks about the big touch down in the Big Game so often that he even forgets he was a benchwarmer.

It wouldn't take much change for Eddie to be alive. Just me to have accepted being gay at 13 or 14. I've often looked back and wished I hadn't said no to many offers. If I deal with it — I hung out in the Village in the late 60s and early 70s. I was good looking and maybe I'd have been different, but that's 20/20 hindsight. We can't change the past. If we could, we'd all win Lotto!

Perry Brass: Did you ever see yourself, even fantasy-wise, getting more involved with Sam, or was he too disturbed and volatile for this?

Steve Simmons: In any of my fantasies in which Sammy is involved, it was always as a friend. I can't picture the Sam I know as my lover. I only hope that I have a chance to see if he's changed. It's easy to tell you where it ends for me. I get out of the country. This year, next year, or in 2003.

For Sam, it's a lot more complicated. He's got a long journey ahead of him. If he's found guilty and gets life with no parole [note: Simmons said this shortly before Manzie pleaded guilty], he's dead. It's that simple. If he gets less time, like 25 years or 20 years, he has a lot of work to do. If he goes to a hospital, he has even more work ahead for him. He won't see the street this side of [age] 25. That's ten years, or year 2007. I don't expect him out before 2010. If not, then Sam will never get out.

Perry Brass: You've been writing about parent-child relationships. Is there some lesson in Sam's situation that you've learned from this? That other people should know?

Steve Simmons: Are there lessons to be learned here? There always are. Learn to communicate with your kids when they are young. Learn to trust them and earn their trust. Be open about things, especially sex, sexuality, drugs, and alcohol. See things from their point of view. Be sensitive to changes in them and their moods. Don't judge them and never, never try to mold them in your image.

What good could come of this? Plenty. It's time we had a standard age of consent. What we now have is archaic. Different ages in different states. Let's make it 16 nationwide, and fourteen and fifteen year olds, if they say it's consensual, then it's okay. And as a rule, if a 14 or 15 year old reports it to the police or his parents, not okay. Sam didn't report it. He just followed my instructions and opened up to his therapist.

We know some 13 or 12 year olds who know what they want. But if indeed they loved an older man and he loved them, then he could wait until they were 14 or older. I can see no reason for having sex with a pre-pubescent child.

The second thing we can accomplish is to change the book on how to deal with molested kids. They make these kids feel like shit. All law enforcement does. The parents do as well. This must stop. It does more damage than the crime.

Perry Brass: Is there anything you want to add to this? Something you say to yourself every day—or often—about Sam, you, and this case?

Steve Simmons: This has all been a witch hunt. A nightmare, and it's not over yet. We can't change what was; but we can prevent it from happening again. No more deaths, no more hurt. No more people in jail that shouldn't be there.

[Note: Steve Simmons's lawyer, Howard Golden, is seeking a dismissal of charges against him due to the "accidental" erasure of this tape, while a technician from Monmouth County Prosecutor John Kaye's office tried to copy it. The tape was the only copy of one of the three tapes made while Sam's phone was being tapped. As of this interview, Kaye is attempting to use Sam Manzie's offers to testify for Steve against him, to show that Simmons "used and abused" an emotionally fragile teenager.]